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Let´s talk about doping (mix maps a disscussion/reactions)
  Vincent
2:50 PM 15-Jan-08 : Quote : Report : #
Trackmaniac!



The discussion is still quite active here, but as it´s losing direction frequently IMO, I have opened another thread to put some things in order and suggest some possible decisions concerning the topic.
They focus on the most inportant points in a constructive way and should be acceptable for both sides - that´s what I hope.

Please have a look: Mix-maps – a constructive approach.
  Zooz
2:55 PM 15-Jan-08 : Quote : Report : #
Zimmer Racer!



Originally posted by Iquere « ...

But IF it turns out that these techniques makes it easier to really hack the game (changing the speed or handling of the cars as an example) it should be strictly forbidden. I don't know much about how TMU is coded etc so I don't know how it works but you get my idea ^^


With full knowledge of GBX files, it would be possible in TMU to:

modify tracks
modify replays (bad)
modify default.systemconfig.gbx (fairly pointless)
modify official solo campaign tracks to set faster times on them (bad)
modify (offline) scores and your profile file
modify MT clip files
modify lightmap cache files (lol)
modify the tracks that appear in the official campaign (not sure if this would affect official times)
that's about everything that's in GBX files i think

Any other game data is either customizable already or stored in the .PAK files, which are encrypted with a Nadeo custom encryption, so it can't be accessed. Probably the handling is in there. That's where Nadeo put the stuff they REALLY don't want people to change.
Last edited 15-Jan-2008 by   Zooz
  Jozii
3:18 PM 15-Jan-08 : Quote : Report : #
Total TMX Nutter!



My God, Alcator, you really set something off here

I've far from read what everyone siad so far, and I can't really add much than "I agree with Alcator". A mixmap entered the MTC months ago, which is really where I started to pay more attention to them. And yeah, I think they're using the game in an unfair way - there's a fine line between taking a community to the next level by doing something "new" with an old game and doing something that can cause a discussion like this one in the first place.

"Mixmaps are evil" might be harsh, but they sure aren't saints either...
  Zooz
3:26 PM 15-Jan-08 : Quote : Report : #
Zimmer Racer!



Biggest problem is people treating "mixmaps" as one entity, it's all about what you do with it. I'm almost getting tired of explaining that now. You can make it good, you can make it bad. Just like with the TMU editor really, except you have way more options to make it bad (or good, but mostly bad)
  high_plains_Bi...
5:50 PM 15-Jan-08 : Quote : Report : #
Trackmaniac!



A couple of points.

Originally posted by Zooz ...
Originally posted by high_plains_Bifta ...
Yes this art can be abused and used to make horrible looking maps which are almost impossible to drive smoothly (sorry Mixo and Zooz but thats my general opinion of both of yours mix-tracks so far.)


Either you only played a few of them, or you're an idiot.

See, not everyone plays the same kind of map. We all know TMX is the bastillon of boring maps but I'll have to defend myself a bit here. IT IS CALLED TECH. My tracks would have been like that anyway, mixes or not. And some of these "horrible maps" have been used in various leagues and cups, such as the FET2, LE9, SA Xmas Cup and Des Bois Competition, cups where good drivers play. The point is, not everyone likes the press forward borefests that are the standard around here, and just that it's a different kind of maps doesn't mean you can call it horrible.


Right first off there is no need for name calling. I did not call you an idiot, all I stated is that I do not like the look of most of your mix-maps so far and that I find them hard to drive and I have tried most if not all of them you have released, though I did quite like Suicide Run (I think thats the one, the Rally track with the finish in the lake). It is no judgment against you as a person Zooz or against Mixo and I have not insulted you as a person. I say Well done in what you have achieved but I personally generally don`t like your style of tracks, Yes they are Tech Tracks but they are too Tech for me and I expect for many people. I know you may not like my tracks so at the end of the day what does it matter, it`s all personal opinion so please don`t misconstrue what I have said.

Originally posted by Zooz ...
Originally posted by high_plains_Bifta ...
HI GUYS I MADE THE FIRST DECENT MIXMAP EVER AND IT'S SO SPECIAL THAT I'M GOING TO CALL IT A WHOLE NEW GENRE OF MAPS, NAMED AFTER MYSELF OF COURSE, BECAUSE I AM AWESOME AND ALL OTHER MIXMAPS SUCK


I am sorry but summarizing up my entire post in that manner is just plain childish and obtuse. I made many different points in my original post and I never said that. There may be other smooth mix-maps out there that I will like and haven`t tried yet, If you know any please feel free to suggest them to me and I will give them a go happily, It will be a pleasure. And there is no-where in the post that I said I would like a whole new genre of mix-maps named after me, thats just being stupid.

If you wish to insult me then I say fine, just put a bit more thought into it. I like a well crafted nicely worded insult, they show you have put some true consideration into what you wish to say and how you you wish to say it. And besides a good insult is always fun to read.

Other than that I am generally quite enjoying this discussion, it is finally clearing the air over some issues which have been surfing under the surface for a while.
  Zooz
5:54 PM 15-Jan-08 : Quote : Report : #
Zimmer Racer!



For the second one I was mosly trying to be funny. Probably not funny to you, but hopefully to others. Mix laughed
Also, that is kinda what your post reads like anyway. You should have replaced "good" and "bad" with "smooth" and "tech" (not literally of course, but in general) and that post would have been much better

The " idiot" part (remember, it was a conditional insult, either this or idiot ^^), was that you call the track a badly made track based on your own opinion of it. There is not much wrong with them, they're just not your style. It appeared you were insulting our track building and mixing techniques based on that, which I thought was idiotic. And I would never deny myself a good opportunity for an insult, even if it's a conditional one
Last edited 15-Jan-2008 by   Zooz
  Vincent
6:14 PM 15-Jan-08 : Quote : Report : #
Trackmaniac!



Well, it´s funny to see that you even seem to enjoy the insulting, though I´m not completely convinced. Apart from that I agree: No need for calling names.

The part I can agree most:

Originally posted by high_plains_Bifta ...
Other than that I am generally quite enjoying this discussion, it is finally clearing the air over some issues which have been surfing under the surface for a while.
Last edited 15-Jan-2008 by   Vincent
  high_plains_Bi...
6:15 PM 15-Jan-08 : Quote : Report : #
Trackmaniac!



Zooz, no problems. I still look forward to you thrashing me on every track out there mix-map or not. You godsdamn demon powered devil sanctioned turbo powered driver that you are
Last edited 15-Jan-2008 by   high_plains_Bifta
  [ATP]scottmc
6:17 PM 15-Jan-08 : Quote : Report : #
Trackmaniac!



This isn't much different than the 10x150 and 20x60 options that were in TMO but not in TMU by default, but creating them in TMO and moving them into TMU allowed you to make tracks with these settings. If you haven't messed around with these in TMU here's where you can get the base maps:
http://united.tm-exchange.com/main.aspx?action=threadshow&id=71518&page=auto#auto
  Zooz
6:26 PM 15-Jan-08 : Quote : Report : #
Zimmer Racer!



Originally posted by Vincent ...
Well, it´s funny to see that you even seem to enjoy the insulting, though I´m not completely convinced.

Come on, it's a part of debating
Throw a personal insult in to accentuate a point, and I bet you'll have their attention. Just don't overdo it, try to keep the humour in (nothing wrong with some schadenfreude) and make sure the insults are somewhat relevant (like "idiot" or "retard" for arguing a statement you think is stupid)
  KEV Fan
8:07 PM 15-Jan-08 : Quote : Report : #
Trackmaniac!



For track building competitions there are probably two opposing attitudes concerning those hacked maps (I prefer "hacked" because "mixmap" is a euphemism in my opinion).
1. Everybody can read the forums to get the information he needs to hack the code for his maps - so chances are balanced
or
2. Not everybody is able to understand those information - so chances are not balanced and the hacked maps are cheating

I can understand both opinions - just depends on your abilities - but "fair" in my opinion would be if we all used the same "tools" which everybody is able to use.

But this is not my focus on this stuff. My point is the question if hacked maps should be tolerated in general or not.
I admit that it is thrilling and interesting to work with those new possibilities. On the other hand there might be effects we all do not like. Where are the limits concerning hacking a map? - what is cool and what is unacceptable?

If I read the Zooz list modifying replays seems to be possible - great stuff
I also read about falsifiying the objective gfx resources is possible meaning map has got low coppers but needs lots of gfx card power because of stretched blocks which even can lead to system hang up on weak systems - superb feature - especially online.
Driving through black spaces seems also be possible - yumm yumm

Hopefully there are not things left you have not seen yet. My favourite would be a massive looking block which is not massive - gives you awesome cut possibilities - hidden boosters would also be fantastic - maybe if you work a bit on that you can make it possible guys ?

TMX staff won´t be able to separate bad stuff from good stuff as you are not able to police people using cuts or no cuts in the replays. Concerning the replays you said "using cuts is allowed" and that´s ok.
But having the same attitude concerning hacked maps might be a dead end in my opinion. I think the risk of misuse outbalances the new possibilities which come along with hacking the code. Once the game has lost its credibility TM world is going to be a wasted place.
I don´t want to play on servers which are fed by maps from TMX which lead to a freezing system.
I would be happy if TMX staff did not support hacked maps but put a lock on that box as soon as possible.

In fact we don´t need that stuff - there are enough possibilities left in the normal editor... and if you think there are not...be patient because TMU-F is not far away.

Now you may call me "not openminded" or maybe "narrowminded" - but I can´t help that I don´t like that stuff at all.
Last edited 15-Jan-2008 by   KEV Fan
  Zooz
8:14 PM 15-Jan-08 : Quote : Report : #
Zimmer Racer!



Originally posted by KEV Fan ...
For track building competitions there are probably two opposing attitudes concerning those hacked maps (I prefer "hacked"
If I read the Zooz list modifying replays seems to be possible - great stuff


I said, when the GBX file format is fully understood and this info is public. That's not the case currently.

Even then, there's a report function on TMX, and moderators, and people watch the replays, and are probably eager to report cheats. So it won't be that big of a problem I think, on TMX at least, even if people figure out how replays work.

Originally posted by KEV Fan ...

I also read about falsifiying the objective gfx resources is possible meaning map has got low coppers but needs lots of gfx card power because of stretched blocks which even can lead to system hang up on weak systems - superb feature - especially online..

There is no such thing as stretching or morphing blocks. Yes you can make TMU display a false amount of coppers in the map browser, but once the map is loaded in the editor it'll display the right amount.

Originally posted by KEV Fan ...

Driving through black spaces seems also be possible - yumm yumm

There has to be something to drive on though, or you'll just fall.

Originally posted by KEV Fan ...

Hopefully there are not things left you have not seen yet. My favourite would be a massive looking block which is not massive - gives you awesome cut possibilities - hidden boosters would also be fantastic - maybe if you work a bit on that you can make it possible guys ?

you can only use existing blocks that have been made by Nadeo and are already in the game. The core game data in the PAK files cannot be modified. There is no such thing as new blocks

Originally posted by KEV Fan ...

I don´t want to play on servers which are fed by maps from TMX which lead to a freezing system.


Can't really do that, if you can't validate it, you can't play it on a server. And if it freezes for you, it freezes for me. At least I don't know of any exceptions.


It seems the people who are against it are generally misinformed and are way overestimating what you can do with this. Calm down, we can only put any block anywhere on the map (with a few exceptions of things working outside the map for some reason). There's no magic involved, so no witch hunt is needed.
Last edited 15-Jan-2008 by   Zooz
  KEV Fan
8:57 PM 15-Jan-08 : Quote : Report : #
Trackmaniac!



Originally posted by Zooz ...
It seems the people who are against it are generally misinformed and are way overestimating what you can do with this. Calm down, we can only put any block anywhere on the map (with a few exceptions of things working outside the map for some reason). There's no magic involved, so no witch hunt is needed.


Don´t like that "witch hunt" expression for a differing opinion.
Don´t think that I´m misinformed - just quoted from what you and HP wrote here and in a reply of the Alcator article.
...maybe overestimating because I´m very sceptical concerning that stuff.
... and indeed "hacking" is no magic at all - manipulating the origin of anything is crap to me as long as it´s not done as an official update

...and again - we don´t really need that stuff - except of maybe one or two people on this site (both retired) there´s way enough space for everybody for enhancing his/her originalty in building maps the standard way.

...and finally...no need to calm down...because as far as I´m concerned I´ll just ignore that stuff. Have fun with it whoever wants and needs it
  Alcator
9:13 PM 15-Jan-08 : Quote : Report : #
Trackmaniac!



Just to give an example of what I was (also) having in mind when talking about breaking some mechanisms:

Magnus's "Little Bigmap": 2600 coppers.
Alcator's "Alky PF": 9100 coppers.

In the first turn on Mixo's track, the framerate drops below 2 frames per second at the same settings which ensure framerate of 15+ on my PF track.

I understand the LBM is a demonstrational track where the framerate drop comes from critically unbalanced vertex tree and thus the way too high load on graphical chipset, but so far, low coppers virtually always meant "This will play smoothly on any PC", while high coppers meant "This may need a better hardware".



Last edited 15-Jan-2008 by   Alcator
  Zooz
9:50 PM 15-Jan-08 : Quote : Report : #
Zimmer Racer!



That's just an effect of it not counting stuff outside the map for track coppers I think, it probably won't be a frequent thing as TMU crashes with most blocks outside the map, there are just a few that actually work, not really enough to make maps outside the regular building area practical.
Last edited 15-Jan-2008 by   Zooz
  jimllfixit
9:55 PM 15-Jan-08 : Quote : Report : #
Toy-Car Racer



at the end of the day i blame NADEO. if they would get off their buts and put out a patch to sort out all or most of the problems with TMU (the last patch was over a year ago just after the game was released) then these problems could all be solved and it would make a lot of dedicated honest players a lot more happier to play these games.
  fastforza
10:45 PM 15-Jan-08 : Quote : Report : #
Total TMX Nutter!



Originally posted by jimllfixit ...
at the end of the day i blame NADEO. if they would get off their buts and put out a patch to sort out all or most of the problems with TMU (the last patch was over a year ago just after the game was released) then these problems could all be solved and it would make a lot of dedicated honest players a lot more happier to play these games.



Don't forget we Have Trackmania United Forever Comming out with loads a fixes to the game.

Back to Topic-
There are multiple blocks that can be placed with each other but are game errors and aren't Classified as mixmaps bug blocks-Just simple game errors-.
  Alcator
10:51 PM 15-Jan-08 : Quote : Report : #
Trackmaniac!



Originally posted by BCS[fastforza] ...

There are multiple blocks that can be placed with each other but are game errors and aren't Classified as mixmaps bug blocks-Just simple game errors-.


Such as? Could you elaborate on that idea a bit more?
  fastforza
10:55 PM 15-Jan-08 : Quote : Report : #
Total TMX Nutter!



The Desert Block the can be placed on amountain backwards-Game Error-
Tech Block and the road to loop thingy they can be put together without the need of rixmix or anything else-Game Error-
  Harmony~Bros
11:53 PM 15-Jan-08 : Quote : Report : #
Zimmer Racer!



Mixo has posted loads of those editor exploits from Power Up etc...
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